Stop calling everything immersive (Guest: Nick Moran - Phantom Peak) (#175)

00:00:25: It has become very rare to have English speaking episodes, because as you know how to fight that park abroad does not longer exist.

00:00:36: But there are some occasions where it is necessary to speak English.

00:00:41: so this will be an all-English episode just one new before we start ahead.

00:00:48: And this will be also a very interesting episode

00:00:51: because

00:00:52: my today's guest is from the Immersive Life Experience Business.

00:00:58: Who it is and what he does?

00:01:00: You will find out in a minute, but first welcome to How To Freizeit Park

00:01:04: the

00:01:04: business podcast for leisure makers.

00:01:06: My name is Stefan Burian.

00:01:08: I'm a freelancing consultant for operations HR and guest experience For leisure attractions of any kind and size And my today's guest Is Owning did create Well one Of The Most Any Kind Attractions There Is.

00:01:27: It Is A Small End I wouldn't say experimental experience, but it is very unique in its game mechanics and how the story has been built.

00:01:45: It was closed a couple of weeks ago because they are moving now from one location to another I would say like an industrial area a little bit outside of London and now they move into a mall in London, a Westfield Mall.

00:02:05: And my today's guest is Nick Moran.

00:02:08: he is the owner founder and creator of Phantom Peak one of the most unique things i've ever done.

00:02:17: just to give you a heads up this interview is completely different and Nick has been an absolute delight.

00:02:30: So I wish you good luck.

00:02:35: all the best, enjoy!

00:02:56: an

00:03:06: open world video game in real life.

00:03:08: People come to this strange, unusual fictional town and they roam around solving trails which are sort of interactive quests a little bit like side-quests into the video games.

00:03:21: There's lots different townsfolk.

00:03:22: each of them have problems And it is up to you as kind of a tourist to help them hinder or harm them In various ways along these stories.

00:03:32: It is unusual in the immersive space because it's a comedy show, like if its fun.

00:03:37: Its frothy and playful as having sense of humour about getting into ridiculous situations with ridiculous characters or people.

00:03:46: And then Fantabique, you know every four months Fantabiques stories change as there's a time jump within the town and Then there's whole new collection of stories.

00:03:54: The Time moves forward season by season Time-by-time characters come characters grow characters changed characters leaves characters arrive.

00:04:03: But fantabique is meant to feel like this ever changing world This ever changing place that you visit just for awhile when your leave?

00:04:10: When You Come Back do something different and you experience something different, And You see a place change with the life that you have as well.

00:04:18: Gee!

00:04:18: That is pretty darn concrete description of your interaction.

00:04:24: It sounds little bit like a TV show

00:04:28: That is purposeful.

00:04:29: It's meant to feel like a real-life Netflix show, it's meant have that sense of?

00:04:34: I guess not that sense...that sense of episodic storytelling.

00:04:38: There's a lot talk about story telling.

00:04:40: in the immersive and attraction space is literally about story telling, it IS about stories and that's why people come back as they want to see what happens next.

00:04:50: They wanna see whats happened with this character next!

00:04:52: They want to understand.

00:04:53: you know...they get a sense of another story or trailer experience along the way.

00:04:57: so its kind-of always about having people be part of this world then being part of a Netflix show where its all about YOU.

00:05:06: thats kinda what has always been.

00:05:07: And what I'm interested most is in how does your target group work with you?

00:05:13: Attraction because i'm always thinking about our german market, which Is very conservative.

00:05:20: We are not Very playful or we're Not really don't have any courage to try Really expressive Or immersive things Because Our target audience is mainly just entertain me.

00:05:32: I'm not here to entertain you, i am the one who has to be entertained and once you are stepping just a single step in phantom peak You're in the middle of thing.

00:05:42: And that's what was my experience for five years ago when it first happened.

00:05:50: It is true immersive because no escape or whatsoever.

00:05:56: So you have to take part and it's very easy to take, but I could believe that once the first weeks when you start such a broad yeah life experience uh It might be difficult for the first visitors to understand what's happening.

00:06:14: Yes i do understand that And I think there always is A reticence to believe That people will play.

00:06:25: But people, most people even if they're conservative.

00:06:28: They are still underneath you know relatively fun People Even people who you aren't think...they'll have a laugh and joke or some type of work.

00:06:38: They will smile, engage with their mates friends pals bros buddies in various different ways to make them have fun during the day And all these situations that always there laughing smiling because ultimately play is how we interact in quite bonds with people.

00:06:56: and but phantom peak is designed to take a lot of that fear out of the equation, the most people when they don't want to play or when they're afraid, I don't know what to do in something new.

00:07:13: It's because they Don't Know What The Rules Are was phantom peak.

00:07:16: you like it?

00:07:17: You know the app tells you where should be going and how are we reading all times So there's never that sense of shall i really go talk this person?

00:07:24: no say let's Go And Talk To This Person!

00:07:26: I know what have to Do an Axis Kind Of A Shield and That Makes People Who Wouldn'T Play wouldn't Have Fun And who probably are great fun in there, you know or even like likable and charming in their everyday life.

00:07:39: And care really a lot about the people around them and things like that.

00:07:44: The app makes a little bit more comfortable to be the person that they actually are normally.

00:07:50: We don't ask anything of them, we don't asked him to assume their character and you're just another place with tourists visiting your town by doing what it does is breaks down barriers.

00:08:02: people will feel comfortable to relax.

00:08:14: Okay, that sounds pretty simple when you explain it like that.

00:08:17: because is It maybe a challenge to explain your product which is hard to explain and Resolving this problem by keeping it as simple as possible without any huge backstory before You enter such an experience.

00:08:34: Yes we are like you do not need they really send.

00:08:38: I sort of I love Lops, right?

00:08:41: Loved Lops are great and it's nothing against Lops.

00:08:43: But Lops is for people who... Who love that level of detail.

00:08:49: Yeah And there- There is like You know On the side of scale ten percent of people Love That.

00:08:54: They want to read every detail.

00:08:56: they won't understand It!

00:08:57: They care about THAT!

00:08:59: And there IS that within The World of Phantom Peak.

00:09:01: but whenever we design a Trail of Phantom peak always have in mind this could be and probably will likely be someone's first to visit Tantabic, maybe their own ever visit.

00:09:10: You should have everything explained you the ever-should know at the beginning of a trail.

00:09:15: then we should assume that.

00:09:17: is it so like by not over dumping on law or making things too complicated but allowing depth into world.

00:09:26: what do something intimidating.

00:09:31: There's not the sense of like, what if I don't know?

00:09:33: Will I be caught up?

00:09:34: Phantom doesn't catch you out.

00:09:35: Doesn't expect anything.

00:09:37: and also kind from an escape background.

00:09:40: And one things with this gate rooms is that there are no outside knowledge needed in order to proceed on Phantom Peak.

00:09:48: we've put it other way No internal knowledge is needy to proceed.

00:09:52: You didn't do any piece of knowledge about the world at Phantom Peak In order to exist within it.

00:10:02: I can agree to that.

00:10:04: Especially the point about The Law, which i found very complicated.

00:10:08: when we have for example in theme parks huge attractions with heavy storytelling you have so much law and they rely on.

00:10:15: We need To tell this story no matter what And They try to...I don't know..they over complicate things sometimes.

00:10:24: What I found pretty easy was When we stepped into Phantom Peak For a very first time.

00:10:30: it Was easygoing, it was not dropped something on my head and we need to study the whole thing.

00:10:37: We can just participate in our own way away at tempo?

00:10:42: Yeah I think there's a lot of mistakes that i think.

00:10:49: firstly like...I have opinions which are that's people who often design rides, I think they're designing an opera and they are designing a ride.

00:11:01: You know you're not designing an Opera.

00:11:03: this is not the ring cycle.

00:11:04: like people are sitting in a queue You know what they want to know?

00:11:07: They wanna know, why am I there and what's gonna happen.

00:11:10: That's all they care about.

00:11:11: you've got two sentences of emotional depth together people And i think okay There are complicated rights where he can tell more complicated stories but their like two them in the world that could do most things.

00:11:26: structure is content.

00:11:27: no the structure for experience is a ride.

00:11:31: mostly your going around on car or track And you don't have that much time to do that.

00:11:36: You know, like again it's the thing of I think people...I think what there is in insecurity somehow sometimes within especially pitch decks for trying to build stuff and try elevate by doing lots complex things.

00:11:49: but some are best experiences ever had.

00:11:51: they just kept simple!

00:11:52: You're going into a spooky place so you can do a spooky thing.

00:11:55: great i know how its supposed feel.

00:11:57: i'm excited stuff will happen we dont'.

00:12:00: A lack of story is not a lack of polish or a lack Of detail.

00:12:07: it's sometimes pulling back.

00:12:09: It's better than pulling forward.

00:12:10: that doesn't I think?

00:12:12: Yeah, but That makes absolute sense.

00:12:15: and so many levels of storytelling And you can go such Levels deep.

00:12:27: the audience can understand always put up additional layers.

00:12:32: but does it do any purpose to your right or the experience of the guests?

00:12:37: No and I think often there's a, i always think that you've got to have very players and customers should be able to feel the story more than they should have to understand.

00:12:54: Comprehension is an upper brain activity where you're digesting information and reducing its emotional output.

00:13:00: You should be able to understand the basic beats of a story just by living through it, even if you only get kind of like the feelings or movements.

00:13:12: this is interactive entertainment in some way, shape or form.

00:13:15: You know it's not a movie... In a movie I can sit down and i can digest it with my mind and then you know the emotions spit out into my soul.

00:13:23: whereas with uh with a theme park ride?

00:13:27: Or an interactive attraction or an immersive experience-I might be looking at the floor the whole time because I like the way that it looks!

00:13:33: You don't even know what people are looking at because you don't control my face You know, which is what you do with a piece of theatre show or something like that.

00:13:40: So I think it's also within the space as we have to assume no one's listening No ones watching, no one taking control and no one reads anything.

00:13:47: And they're tired The legs hurt They are sick walking around.

00:13:52: That's your customer.

00:13:53: Make them happy and understand whats going on.

00:13:56: Make him understand its important when talking about game mechanics.

00:14:02: Thats why i found very interesting again How how simple it was solved at your place.

00:14:08: when I think about, i don't know challenge rooms for example.

00:14:12: It's heavy tech is complicated as fuck When you talk about escape room sometimes often also very tech-heavy.

00:14:21: but uh...it Was just my mobile phone.

00:14:24: the what?

00:14:25: What was called the Jonah?

00:14:27: The Jonasist?

00:14:28: and this Is Your Guide through the whole storyline And it works!

00:14:34: Why?

00:14:35: and was it on the solution of the very first try or wasn't like, The second or third round off trying to figure out how get people to interact with your stuff.

00:14:45: Always absolutely essential from the word go.

00:14:48: knew that Genesis is going be there?

00:14:49: Like That was always part design.

00:14:52: two things.

00:14:53: one the Genesis divides everyone in different trails.

00:14:55: at beginning so you'd all divide upon different stories And that really helps flow a bit.

00:15:01: also help us feel alive If four hundred people are there, like everyone's kind of doing different things.

00:15:08: It feels alive.

00:15:09: you're seeing little glimpses or something that you might see on another trail.

00:15:12: it makes it feel like its a real world.

00:15:14: if one person will all do the same thing your going to get his cues.

00:15:17: so what he does is structurally changes experience and make this work.

00:15:21: thats really important.

00:15:25: Secondly, I've been to a lot of open-world experiences across my time.

00:15:30: Like I'm sure you have we're being to everything right?

00:15:33: And don't lie...I am someone who.. I am tenacious and will follow something through it's conclusion but the average person they get lost really easily.

00:15:46: that not because their stupid It is just like oh i'm not sure what should be doing And I don't feel comfortable pushing or asking for help because it doesn't look stupid.

00:15:58: You know, and by having something which is your simple guide you can trust it.

00:16:03: It can give hints when needed When you've done something right.

00:16:09: then throughout the whole experience.

00:16:16: And I think that by doing that, we've solved a lot of problems and made people more comfortable.

00:16:20: People were happy.

00:16:21: That's the most essential thing that we have done.

00:16:24: Like Jonah assist is like.

00:16:25: it makes handsome people work with stories.

00:16:29: It keeps them simple.

00:16:31: you don't need complicated tech.

00:16:34: We are language machines.

00:16:35: create linguistic way for understanding what going

00:16:37: on.

00:16:38: Yeah, and how important was it for you to have like a proper payoff at the end of each trail?

00:16:43: because there could be Like a point system.

00:16:46: There could be like I don't know A fake currency too two collect or what do you have done is pretty easy just having a Sort-of card collective card at the End.

00:16:58: why that?

00:16:59: Why not going all the way up and say earn your money spend in town?

00:17:05: Because uh i dont want this To Be competitive.

00:17:08: Look, this is not a competitive socializing experience.

00:17:11: Here's here as a memento from the story you've done.

00:17:14: You've done it!

00:17:15: You achieved... It's nice little button on end of the story.

00:17:19: All that is tying up thing with a bow And also like showing iPhone Story.

00:17:24: One Of Sixteen Or I've been through five of sixteen, you know.

00:17:30: We don't do sixteen trials anymore or a season in Jesus but we now do ten a season.

00:17:35: But what it allows is people to understand that their story is over and get something for.

00:17:40: It's more like an achievement being unlocked.

00:17:42: That's how i think about it.

00:17:44: Yeah!

00:17:44: That makes absolutely sense.

00:17:45: So its really the live video game experience with the achievement which can show up as a point of accomplishment.

00:17:56: Yes Yeah, definitely.

00:17:57: So like rather than I also want people to take their time.

00:18:02: if you don't have a trail generally takes between forty and sixty minutes Like generally over the course of a show.

00:18:09: People do three two up To them.

00:18:13: There's no.

00:18:14: there should be No reward for doing it quicker or doing it slower.

00:18:17: If You wanted to just stay in fish pastures out Of Lake For Two Hours And Play All The Different Games You Can Do That.

00:18:23: It Is Your Choice.

00:18:25: And there's no right or wrong about making like a currency element, but it does.

00:18:29: It means that by rushing at you're doing better.

00:18:31: No That is not the Hansen Peak way.

00:18:33: Your time your experience your choice your way.

00:18:38: You said before that you have an escape room background.

00:18:43: How difficult was to leave the escape world and do something completely different?

00:18:50: incredibly easy.

00:18:55: I didn't start off as a baby in this gay world, so i did other things beforehand.

00:19:01: You had

00:19:02: a proper life before?

00:19:08: But, you know, our skate rooms are a design and build structure that I'm very excited about.

00:19:12: And I love it very much in.

00:19:14: there are plenty of incredible brilliant creators around the world still pushing the medium forward In way that someone like me probably never could.

00:19:26: people like Chris Lattner Jonathan Driscoll on all these incredible world talents That it depends on.

00:19:36: what are you at your highest aspiration?

00:19:37: What is the thing that, you know You are and my before coming to escape rooms.

00:19:41: My back I was a freelance writer.

00:19:43: That's why did?

00:19:44: i was a writer produced like script stuff Did lots of playstation do lot for other various different companies And I produce a lot of different other types of experiences and I think I'd always wanted to produces create a place people could stay for really long time with lots of different stories and that's something I always want to do now.

00:20:02: Well, i wanted to know how to crack the experiential model because partly like not just commercial ends Of course making money is required in order To exist make things more Things.

00:20:13: but um In order to Make A Make The type of experience That I Wanted to Exist.

00:20:21: Skate rooms plenty of them out there.

00:20:23: They exist.

00:20:24: they will continue to be great whether I need it or not.

00:20:29: But no one had really tried to do something like that to peak, and i wanted because people would love the idea of a high appetite for risk!

00:20:42: That will have been my follow-up question from a scale from about how high was your stress level during the planning phase?

00:20:52: Nothing... Operating a business is more stressful than starting it.

00:20:59: You know, like operating something as easy you just have to build it sell tickets.

00:21:06: It feels great at the beginning.

00:21:08: what's hard?

00:21:08: Is year two when...you're okay I need to reinvent my marketing engine blah blah blah.

00:21:17: yeah one is joy to despair Year Two is despair to stability Year three is stability increasing and year four is dead.

00:21:29: No, not really a year for us to go But I have launched many products across my life And i love a build!

00:21:37: It's the best part of anything because you know You're unencumbered by what might be?

00:21:49: you have to believe fully in it and that's like your time of peak self-delusion.

00:21:56: And that's always the best times, so the stress level is always offset by this off delusion.

00:22:01: um if I speak with a joy to open absolutely joy i look back at that time fondly.

00:22:06: yeah loved it.

00:22:08: but when you think back to your opening phase and in the very first weeks what has been your biggest challenge?

00:22:16: You had to overcome?

00:22:18: Um,

00:22:21: uh I think a lot of it was just like Like how many trails should there be?

00:22:29: How many actors Should they be.

00:22:30: How Many interactions should that Be?

00:22:31: how many tech points should There be?

00:22:33: like A lot Of It Was.

00:22:34: get it we got to lots of the Principles right i'm not.

00:22:37: i've Got Lot of The ingredients Right but Not necessarily the right Quantities of Ingredients if you Get me.

00:22:42: so it's kind of like tweaking Rather than like We were.

00:22:45: like the cake is good But its not yet great.

00:22:49: And I think that's been like the refining and shaving off on polishing of it over.

00:22:53: The last couple of years has been.

00:22:56: sorry, I'm going to start my sentence again.

00:23:01: Um, the polishing and refining at honing ever after the last three years has being absolutely key.

00:23:07: That's been learning.

00:23:08: It is still yet to be perfected because... I don't believe in perfection as possible but you have to keep going and like, if I'm at eighty-five percent of where i wanted it be.

00:23:24: It'll be another year when I get to eighty seven or eighty nine.

00:23:27: You know one day you might go into the nineties.

00:23:29: But yeah To believe that you could a hundred percent present anything is delusional.

00:23:33: Yeah...I think That was One Of My Most Interesting Questions I Had During An Interview For A Job.

00:23:41: What Is?

00:23:43: The Question Was?

00:23:44: What's More Important To You To Be Perfect Or To Be On Time?

00:23:47: And I said immediately, well on time because I can't measure perfect.

00:23:52: What is perfect?

00:23:53: You're perfect that's different from mine.

00:23:55: but on time i have a deadline and an opening date which I've already announced.

00:23:59: so this my point to meet what... I cannot make it perfect for everybody cause don't know what perfect means.

00:24:09: Totally correct.

00:24:10: Perfect for every reason isn't impossibility But striving for perfection knowing you cant'make is part of the journey of creation, I think.

00:24:20: Yeah it is.

00:24:20: and what you've done...I was following you afterwards on social media because i hadn't had a chance to come back yet but you did a lot of changes.

00:24:32: You also expanded your set in your town.

00:24:37: What was the thing that you said?

00:24:40: alright?

00:24:41: That was an nice start But we need to change completely Like, for example I saw that you removed the blimp from the indoor section right?

00:24:50: Yes.

00:24:51: Well we'd always... We sort of ran out time a bit during our opening at Phantom Peak and wanted to have more built inside.

00:24:59: so we split it across two seasons in terms of the launch of it.

00:25:02: So we had the old Newtown outside and also just commit off COVID, there's still a lot anxiety about being indoors.

00:25:09: so you're like look let's do primary like seventy five percent outdoor twenty-five percent indoor and then as we go into winter will shift that kind.

00:25:19: And I think that was one of the key, less like a learning and more like the final parts of the plan being enacted.

00:25:29: Um...I think for real learnings of honing it really happened.

00:25:33: probably twenty-twenty three after our thirties in the Phantom Peak when we'd had little bit of a pause We got to work out what were doing and hone down over year or two.

00:25:43: That's kind of when you hit our stride.

00:25:50: And now Phantom Peak has done its final season on it's original place and you are moving to a new location.

00:26:00: Why?

00:26:00: Yes.

00:26:01: Well, do you want the exciting reason or the true reason?

00:26:07: The exciting reasons?

00:26:08: because excited reason is obviously Westfield Stratford where our newer thing Is like the biggest ball in Europe a great home phantom peak.

00:26:16: It's gonna be really cool and it can get better.

00:26:18: set that chance to make like Make everything ever wanted to be in terms of like up the design of quality all this kind Of stuff just being able to small things, some rooms too small.

00:26:28: Some rooms to big just all these like tiny tweaks that the outside thing would not really matter.

00:26:33: but you know they all do add up.

00:26:36: But the real reason obviously is the building was being demolished.

00:26:41: Yeah, we didn't really have any choice.

00:26:43: It's becoming student accommodation.

00:26:44: so it wasn't like... We could stay there but also we always knew as a temporary venue I'm always looking for that next great home and want to be somewhere that was killer.

00:26:55: Westfield Stratford is an absolutely fantastic location where i'm really excited about.

00:26:59: the Westfield guys are enthusiastic.

00:27:01: they've come to fanspeak loads with their families or their mates you know?

00:27:05: So making something that is everything we ever wanted it to be.

00:27:17: Not necessarily from a changing of the raw product, but simply being able to do the build perfectly in way like... The first one was just sort- It's something you learn as we went forward and have second go at it.

00:27:30: It's such a privilege!

00:27:31: I'm very excited by it.

00:27:32: Yeah And i found quite exciting from a strategic point because moulds are always in trouble.

00:27:39: They have now this huge problem that we have a consumer crisis, people are not spending a lot of money on the malls and especially when you look here into German malls there's so much empty room for most of them and everybody is trying to figure it out.

00:27:58: what could be do?

00:27:59: So first thing would maybe bring some life into your rooms with such experiences like yours.

00:28:07: And when I look now to London, it seems pretty obvious that should be also maybe like a handshake situation because you are reviving the space.

00:28:18: It's the other Westfield Mall in London where Wake The Tiger will take place this year as well.

00:28:23: so there is something going on.

00:28:28: Yeah, so and I think it's kind of a little bit proof of con proof that like Westfield who are Like they're the premium world operator in In the UK at the top on top.

00:28:37: The market They're very clever And they kind of see see trends a little.

00:28:41: but before other people and i think they've grabbed us and wait.

00:28:44: That's how i go out.

00:28:45: being like you guys do the ones because they Think we were with their guides to partner With.

00:28:49: and which tiger great?

00:28:51: Are there really nice guys and friends of ours have been really excited to be able.

00:28:55: They're in the west London, Westfield.

00:28:56: We are at East London and Westfield so we kind of straddle this city which is kinda fun.

00:29:03: but there's lots of plans on how to partner with them in various different ways.

00:29:10: a lot more operators understand that it's problem And very few are actually doing anything about it.

00:29:16: I think that Westfield is ahead of the curve, and you're going to see this happen in lots of different walls across the country.

00:29:24: It's gonna be a big change in consumer behaviour because everything will... experiential is moving things-I mean all my clothes i bought online.

00:29:34: My watch i bought on line.

00:29:35: This microphone i brought online.

00:29:37: When did I last go shop?

00:29:38: Apart from who cares?

00:29:40: Shop's rubbish!

00:29:44: Shops are terrible, and everyone knows they're terrible.

00:29:48: They're just empty desolate wastelands.

00:29:51: Screw shops make things that people care about.

00:29:54: bigger.

00:29:55: people like emotions enjoy And I think all these big malls have seen it as well.

00:30:01: So i already got a title for this episode.

00:30:12: I totally agree with you because i'm always trying to figure out, it is a rental company in the end of day.

00:30:21: so they are just renting spaces and don't care where money comes from.

00:30:24: but Quality time if you have a huge long-duel time and your mall so the people will spend automatically.

00:30:33: And again, that's the thing we see in Germany right now.

00:30:38: They're trying to but not I Have the courage right now really go into it as We seen how in London.

00:30:45: So do you see?

00:30:47: There there might be a huge market for for experiential things In the next couple of years especially in Europe.

00:30:56: The the European mainland immersive and experiential market is I Mean like London, it's a little bit ahead.

00:31:06: You know A little bit of head on that way in terms of likely just is there Just isn't more like i think because of london sort of Like really long for the actual core tradition.

00:31:15: And you know It just has a tiny bit of an edge.

00:31:18: so i think what if we see londons kind Of the testbed then i think you know That thing Is going to Really really, really spread out from there.

00:31:27: But the only way we get there is by seeing a lot more capital invested in this space.

00:31:31: immersive and experiential is still under-invested in, an under index in terms of capital deployment.

00:31:37: And I think until we see a lot of sea change from you know like private equity and like traditional investors and family officers willing to invest into experience entertainment the problem is also there's a lot really absolutely terrible immersive stuff out that, Immersive and quote unquote immersive which are war crimes and people who should go to jail.

00:31:58: um Who make them?

00:32:00: Van Gogh, not immersive.

00:32:02: Just rubbish just tap dancing with the grave of an artist.

00:32:05: they every single person who involved in immersive van.

00:32:08: Gogh.

00:32:09: um They should get into The Grave with Van Goghe up there as well.

00:32:14: and because you know

00:32:16: at least by punished uh By cutting over it in a year.

00:32:19: No that is absolutely.

00:32:21: You are too gentle the whole head decapitate, they have committed a sin against this sector and made bad stuff.

00:32:33: Luckily in London because of immersive it was bigger before that came.

00:32:37: you know like hasn't changed it, but not other markets.

00:32:41: That's the first immersive stuff that people have ever been to and it was really bad.

00:32:45: And I think also there is a lot of bad stuff out there.

00:32:49: It needs to die on bigger and better operators who make stuff that can be.

00:32:54: rather than fifty thousand square foot They could be fifteen thousand square feet and create meaningful experiences.

00:33:00: Those people need to build experiences they need to have counter behind them.

00:33:08: So that's the other enemy here.

00:33:11: Crap touring stuff, it is the enemy!

00:33:14: I always kind of get the chills when i hear the word immersive because It really brought down to a very low level of crap... Is a full projection room immersive?

00:33:33: No, it's not.

00:33:34: The answer

00:33:37: is no!

00:33:39: For a long while.

00:33:40: I've recently realised that people have said yeah but who gets to decide what is immersive and what isn't?

00:33:48: And i decided its me world is immersive and what it's not.

00:33:54: And no one else, I get to decide on my why say goes across the world because someone has to do something that I've decided i'm going.

00:34:03: it is not.

00:34:10: It's going to the cinema immersive, no that's just a projection on one wall.

00:34:13: four walls doesn't make it any more immersive.

00:34:16: so like you know I'm gonna sort all out don't worry.

00:34:20: but uh those people who say immersives like a projection show is non-immersive Um, it is a museum piece.

00:34:28: It is a good museum piece.

00:34:29: sometimes Sometimes just a great museum piece.

00:34:32: But you know for example team lab team lap is immersive because interactive.

00:34:36: Yeah really?

00:34:36: Good.

00:34:37: and people who say oh, it's kind of like teen lab without all the good things with All The Good Things taken out.

00:34:41: no, it' s not Team Lab or world-class You Know.

00:34:44: what it needs to be Is that we need to?

00:34:46: you know.

00:34:46: And those kind Of bad projection shows That are all wobbly Wobbly bang off wobbly benet wobbly climped.

00:34:55: They pretend they're using the word immersive as a way to shift a ticket and create a customer who hates themselves.

00:35:03: And that is something I think, again... We've got The Hague there!

00:35:10: It's just not doing enough for war crimes right now.

00:35:13: we could do quite a lot with it.

00:35:14: i'm happy to be on any judge jury.

00:35:17: you know what executioner?

00:35:18: I'll decapitate them if needs to be.

00:35:19: someone has got.

00:35:21: Oh, right.

00:35:21: Okay I see a tickle the nerve there somewhere in you and i agree with You.

00:35:30: mean it's The same thing we have for theme parks.

00:35:32: when We describe something as Something that not what It is people will take this word And go around and say it Is That What They Say.

00:35:41: But Its Just A Marketing Buzzword For Describing Something Not the product you would like to have.

00:35:49: because immersion is so much more, it's so much.

00:35:53: More organization planning?

00:35:55: More storytelling?

00:35:55: More emotion.

00:35:57: I don't get any emotions in a projection exhibition whatsoever.

00:36:01: i get the emotion of okay where's next exit?

00:36:04: Because I've seen several thousand times because its always the same But talking about Always The Same Before You Start Again Another Rent About Immersive Protection stuff.

00:36:17: I see you're already... No,

00:36:18: i'm done!

00:36:20: Okay?

00:36:25: What's next for you?

00:36:26: because when you move to Phantom Peak again try new things in your cupboard.

00:36:35: is it a completely new experience or just an enhanced experience from the previous location?

00:36:46: or is it where you have a completely fresh new start?

00:36:49: It's an enhanced experience, the new location.

00:36:51: Its sort of bigger better bolder.

00:36:54: obviously all collection news stories New tech.

00:36:57: its going to be everything we always wanted to make.

00:36:59: Phantom Peak as if you've been to Phantom Peak before.

00:37:02: this is Phantom Peak on steroids.

00:37:04: The Phantom peak like off your dreams!

00:37:16: I can't tell you how good it's going to be.

00:37:17: I'm very, very excited.

00:37:19: like we're like.

00:37:20: the designs are so exciting and this is gonna mean nothing like anywhere in the world.

00:37:25: I promise that And then hope here.

00:37:27: after we do this, you know, Phantom Peaks wanna go around other places not touring as a touring projection show.

00:37:34: No promises there.

00:37:35: But um You want to build other attractions and other places.

00:37:41: We looking at Europe, Australia We're looking all around the world at places we can take Phantom Peak next.

00:37:48: That's what our goal is, to bring Phantom Peak which we think it's something that gives people joy and meaning.

00:37:57: We get to escape their troubles in a complex and fearful world, I feel positive.

00:38:01: And happy and engaged that you know it's like there is the world which respects them.

00:38:06: You Know we want bring that To lots of different places across The World.

00:38:11: Have more people experiencing the joy of Phantom Peak.

00:38:13: That what really proud Of and thats What i think again Is the privilege of making incredible live entertainment Is that you Get to make More People Happy Have a great value ticket because that's because of the great value to get for what it is in A time.

00:38:31: It's challenging.

00:38:32: That makes them their family and they're friends feel valued.

00:38:36: Yeah, and it makes it worth awhile Because you spend a lot of money You spent a lot off your own free time And when you go out Of your experience and and he really had that chance too Completely be immersed and have that escapism of just forgetting your normal boring day in diving to something completely different.

00:38:56: I think the biggest payoff you can have with your attraction, because i hadn't had any sense what is phantom peak four years ago?

00:39:16: So joyful afterwards because I came out of my comfort zone on so many points with your staff.

00:39:22: Because you're actors are well trained, absolutely weird very lovable.

00:39:30: and the point that... The amount of interaction can have an attraction i've never experienced it before.

00:39:37: How difficult is to train yourself at this level?

00:39:41: This is what we want from a character.

00:39:45: Luckily, we've had a good game of people stay with us.

00:39:47: A lot this love the time and they kind of grow.

00:39:50: We become better at finding the right kind of character With it's kind of little bit like a kind of ingredient that sort of I spark of a Spark of like joy that there have within them but they just desperately want to bring into the world.

00:40:06: But like hiring like finding great improvisers finding great people who would like relish interaction.

00:40:13: There are loads of funny people in this world who are desperate to have a job, which allows them to be funny.

00:40:18: And Phantom Peak is the place where like you go for it!

00:40:22: You go for what we believe in you and that is the main thing... ...and the rest of it is hire nice funny charming upbeat people.... ...and strangely enough they'll give other people a nice funny Charming upbeat time And that's the secret ingredients.

00:40:38: Of course, there are other parts of it but this is a core part you know?

00:40:42: Loads of key players and actors like Mandy who has been here since day one in the final season.

00:40:51: she just a joy to be around That across all her characters not only great actor She's just a joi.

00:40:59: And I would say if you want people that are fun and enjoy to be with, don't hire drags.

00:41:08: People who were a drag in their main life?

00:41:11: Strangely enough they're an absolute drag when there is performance as well!

00:41:19: Yeah...I think what i'm seeing here it's such open space On some point because you have not just the people coming to you as a customer, As a guest or tourist.

00:41:34: But also they come and work with you And bring that experience to life.

00:41:38: I mean if You can behave different Or maybe something in your character That you want to bring out That's your place To be

00:41:50: For sure

00:41:53: Nick.

00:41:54: one last thing could wish, except of raising the word immersive and I don't know.

00:42:03: I didn't want to raise it!

00:42:05: I'd wanna raise some people... It's a whole murder thing.

00:42:11: Just to raise them from history you know?

00:42:13: But don't worry carry on.

00:42:14: Okay

00:42:15: if okay The question is If you had a time machine You could travel back in time.

00:42:19: Who would be?

00:42:33: I really forgot my question.

00:42:38: What was it?

00:42:40: Oh yeah, if you had a magic magic hat no budget No time limitations whatsoever phantom peak is running its all over the world.

00:42:48: what would be The experience you would love to create, to bring joy and story to people?

00:42:55: I'd like to make Phantom Peak on a scale.

00:42:57: Like Phantom Peak is like twenty five thousand square foot right.

00:43:00: i'd love To Make A Hundred and Fifty Thousand Square Foot Phantom Peak a proper actual town with little mini trains, things like that rides all this kind of stuff.

00:43:11: Still with some sense of joy and exploration and discovery underneath a sense of exploration but I think to be able to build it on a scale that feels not just a small town you're researching an actual large town or city.

00:43:27: Yeah, it's.

00:43:29: I mean that's the dream.

00:43:31: And look you know like uh i'm still relatively young in The Grand Scheme of Things.

00:43:37: I'm still in my thirties for another nine months.

00:43:40: um so uh good luck thank you.

00:43:43: uh I

00:43:43: hear they've fallen already

00:43:45: yeah over the hill...I respect it.

00:43:47: don't worry!

00:43:47: I am looking to get down those slopes myself and I'm gonna ski right down all the way to the grave.

00:43:53: um So..i can't even ski got very flat feet really painful.

00:43:57: tried snowboarding doesn't work either.

00:43:59: but um maybe so i could true yeah you can try a sleigh.

00:44:03: it feels a bit sort of feels a little I guess a bit farther far the christmas of me but santerie and he doesn't

00:44:10: have the impact.

00:44:11: if you if you ski down to your grave that looks more efficient than cool.

00:44:16: then on a sleight

00:44:17: honestly is a little regal.I think someone's slaying their grave.

00:44:20: they've already given up.

00:44:21: Um, yeah.

00:44:23: That's that feels like also if you're kind of passive to go on a slate because really the sleigh is doing the work whereas your snowboarding or skiing there still some sort of core going on and that helps the abs.

00:44:33: And I really want to look taught when i'm sitting there ripped in my coffin.

00:44:36: um uh but Uh, I think it was a question But I've lost it.

00:44:40: what was it again?

00:44:43: You were talking about scaling up to having a proper town and Phantom Peak.

00:44:49: And I'm from an operational point of view, or that's my backstory from theme parks and stuff... ...and the first thing comes into mind because i am huge critic ,because I have operations where when you scale it up might there be a point?

00:45:07: Where would say okay this is maximum.

00:45:10: I could bring Phantom Peak to a scale before I lose any of its detail and lore?

00:45:17: Yes, there absolutely is the point.

00:45:20: I think i don't know what that point is um...and i'll have to do the thinking on it!

00:45:25: Um..I reckon...Sophantopic again has like twenty five thousand to thirty-five thousand square foot right now or about you know two thousand seven hundred square meters.

00:45:37: ish so.... And I think once you get above seventy thousand square meters, unless you are really good.

00:45:50: The sense of place will dissolve.

00:45:52: because the problem is that like...the bigger you get.

00:45:55: it's not just about the detail.

00:45:58: I'm never worried by the details but worries me the space that you find will be like, your city edges of this face more to what I mean in a small space is easy for us.

00:46:13: You just see mostly the space where isn't it?

00:46:15: kind of larger town?

00:46:16: We've got a lot

00:46:17: of edge

00:46:17: and we're gonna love.

00:46:19: looking at large buildings or things like that Just might not feel as real and to find an internal space It might start to feel weird.

00:46:26: So yeah there was a point that scaling up just won't work anymore.

00:46:30: Um, um But you know what?

00:46:32: What a lovely problem to have.

00:46:34: uh To have that one day if I had that problem.

00:46:37: I'll be really happy.

00:46:38: You know again tell the problem that i've got just spent so much money That i'll have to work out for skeletal large space.

00:46:43: i'm not there.

00:46:44: i'm Really far away from that.

00:46:45: would love it to be their one-day stream.

00:46:49: And talking about dreams of one dream that will Be becoming real very soon is phantom peak.

00:46:55: two point.

00:46:56: oh when Will It be open?

00:46:59: it'll be open suit.

00:47:04: I'm not going to say

00:47:06: all right,

00:47:07: because my marketing person would slap me around the ears.

00:47:11: okay so we will see it.

00:47:14: believe anyway on social media linked in whatsoever just have an iron and they can really underline people.

00:47:25: if you haven't been to phantom peak And you want to see what it is and how does it feel?

00:47:30: How does the play now?

00:47:31: that's work.

00:47:32: go there.

00:47:32: It will be open some point this year, hopefully when we when the Yappa Expo Europe is in London This Year In September May

00:47:44: I am You're not gonna get anything out of me.

00:47:51: Look i would love it To Be Open.

00:47:55: End of sentence.

00:47:55: So there we go, all

00:47:57: right?

00:47:58: No worries I'm not pushing you anymore

00:48:01: like.

00:48:02: it'll be open as soon As we can.

00:48:03: that's one way i could say It's just a big complex build

00:48:07: and yeah

00:48:08: so who knows

00:48:10: Fair enough.

00:48:11: And if you push something it might happen That its getting at the end of projection show and thats Not going to happen.

00:48:20: Now how are we dead?

00:48:20: If that happens ill have gone I'd be slaying right down to my grave, and I'll just be doing crunches along the way.

00:48:27: To make up for the fact that my core isn't working.

00:48:29: so... So i can end up looking ripped?

00:48:31: Looking ripped!

00:48:32: Post-death.

00:48:34: But it was so lovely to have you here talking about your product, which I really adore and wish all the best.

00:48:41: Best of luck with your new opening!

00:48:44: And having you alive not on a sleigh going downhill... ...I see you there with lots of passion in your eyes when you speak about immersive experiences.

00:48:56: Let's go out here and say slay the projection mapping shows real immersive attractions out there.

00:49:06: Thank you very much for having me, it's been a pleasure.

00:49:08: thank you so much!

00:49:17: I hope i did not raise or have risen the expectations too high and i hope you really did enjoy this small chat with nick.

00:49:42: um...i have uh..very....not very but lot of respect for what he does and how he sees things.

00:49:52: I mean okay there are certain things i would say uh might see differently.

00:49:58: I usually have my own strong opinions but yep that was quite different today, But anyway it

00:50:03: wasn't an absolute

00:50:04: delight.

00:50:05: he was an amazing guest.

00:50:06: so nick thank you so much for having us as a guest on the show and if you want to visit phantom peak maybe well someone during this year go to london Enjoy it and really get amazed.

00:50:21: I had a blast the couple of years ago during the expo Euro Yapa trade show.

00:50:28: And yeah, if you want to find out more about Nick Moran and Phantom Peak have look into the show notes?

00:50:34: If you want know more about myself my services visit me on my website www.StefanBuriam.com or just try to get in touch with me via email contact at StefanBurjan.com and if you want to find out more have a look into the show notes.

00:50:53: thanks for listening, and have a great week!